Curse

HigherMinion · Feb 01, 2010, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

I find that the MM is useful myself. The walls really help keep things out.

The 20% enchant mod is very useful - Aegis, PS, and OoV. OoV's extra 1 second is actually pretty useful.

Why paragon? I would go either /Mo for PS + Aegis or /Me for rupts. Rupts really help alot when in HM and you have a decent protter such as the E/Mo infuser.

BTW I also wouldn't use a Paragon with a pet. Minion wall is for wall and Paragons don't need to spread their stats anymore than they already are.

EDIT: Nvm I see what the Paragon secondary is for. I still prefer my interrupt version. I see someone meddled with my build on PvX wiki but whatever (probably minion >.>). The community will decide how it will work best. Looking forward to opinions.

Well, first thing is; if you have an E/Mo hero, you will not need another PS very often.

I use N/P because it's a dedicated Minion Bomber, nothing more; Fall Back speeds up the minions and their life-span when running to and from mobs, and also is often activated just as we approach a mob, so the minions get to the front faster. We Shall Return! is a lol-resurrection skill; if your party is on the brink of wiping, pewpew you're all back and finish off the mob.

I always thought interrupts were mostly silly in big mobs anyway; Usually there are multiple foes of the same profession in a mob, and if you interrupt one hex or spell, most likely another will get it off anyway. It's better to just let your team kill.

I haven't tried a P/R with a pet, but R/P is very handy, given signet of return and GFTE.

P.S. Correct.

Lusciious · Feb 01, 2010, 10:20 PM // 22:20

I meant in low corpse areas where the MM would not be at it's fullest potential, i would swap it out for a paragon which can support the whole team .

blazing finale / athem of flame and they're on fire helps to reduce overall damage on the group .

also, fallback is a +

The purpose of the pet is to trigger more physical attacks (i'm a mop nuker remember?) and as another obstacle the enemies have to get through in order to get to the backline.

n/me or n/mo is for normal game play where there are sufficient corpses around .

i like chaining aegis so n/mo for me .

i might go n/me for OotV or maybe another n/mo xD triple aegis !

HigherMinion · Feb 01, 2010, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

The purpose of the pet is to trigger more physical attacks (i'm a mop nuker remember?)

I suggested a pet earlier on a ranger. I was thinking for a MoP trigger taking 3x of the following
R/P Magebane shot, savage shot, distracting, Rapid Fire. Lethal speeds if they spam the interrupt skills upon recharge.

mage767 · Feb 02, 2010, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crassus Praetor

Over what period of time?

Anything can do 73k damage if you leave it long enough

In 3 minutes flat.

Lusciious · Feb 02, 2010, 03:19 AM // 03:19

so thats about 405 DPS . How about you give me 8 MMs with 11 minions each = 88 minions + 8(physical necs) = 96.

96 x barbs (16? ) = 1536 .

Not to mention you haven't even added their normal damage so don't come here and show off

oh and read this .. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...t10423214.html

@Higher Minion, yeah, rangers like mesmers can interrupt which is a good utility when you cant bring an MM due to the area being low on corpses. Daze is also nice . What about an AoE KD hero ? the earthshaker build on pvx .

mage767 · Feb 02, 2010, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

so thats about 405 DPS . How about you give me 8 MMs with 11 minions each = 88 minions + 8(physical necs) = 96.

96 x barbs (16? ) = 1536 .

Not to mention you haven't even added their normal damage so don't come here and show off

oh and read this .. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...t10423214.html

@Higher Minion, yeah, rangers like mesmers can interrupt which is a good utility when you cant bring an MM due to the area being low on corpses. Daze is also nice . What about an AoE KD hero ? the earthshaker build on pvx .

Not to piss you off or anything, but I did achieve it, and it's a balanced build. But due to close minded 'build-masters' at pvxwiki, it won't go up. There is only 1 MM in the build, not 8. Me, and my 3 heroes (thats all).

And no, it's not vanity, it's a challenge.

HigherMinion · Feb 02, 2010, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

Not to piss you off or anything, but I did achieve it, and it's a balanced build. But due to close minded 'build-masters' at pvxwiki, it won't go up. There is only 1 MM in the build, not 8. Me, and my 3 heroes (thats all).

And no, it's not vanity, it's a challenge.

Screens/ builds, in that case? Only way to prove it ;-P
Besides, I could deal that amount of damage with barbs+BuH and 3 sins spamming with LF on the Master of Damage. I assume.

Lusciious · Feb 02, 2010, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Oh i'm not pissed xD

Get 1 MM + Support (barbs), 2 sin spammers (buffed with BuH, GDW, SoH, EBSoH) There you go .

anyway, back to topic.

So i have 3 heroes .

ER Protter - ER, Aura of restoration, Aegis, Spirit bond, Prot Spirit, RoF, Shield Guardian, Infuse

ES - 12+1+1
Prot - 12

================================================== =======

AotL MM - AoTL, animate bone minions, putrid bile, death nova, masochism, 3 optionals

DM - 12+1+3
Soul Reaping 8+1
Additional points to allow another attribute to hit 10

================================================== ========

OotV Support - OotV, Strip Enchantment, 6 optionals

BM - 12+1+1
Soul Reaping 8+1
Additional points to allow another attribute to hit 10

================================================== ========

IMO, viable secondary professions for necros are ...

monk - prot 9 and healing 5 or prot 10 - Prot spirit / Aegis / Dwayna's Sorrow / Spirit bond ?

mesmer - domination - Cry of Fustration / power spike ?

paragons - command - fall back ?

ritualist - channeling - splinter weapon / ancestor's rage / death pact signet / flesh for my flesh

ritualist - restoration - life / spirit light / mend body and soul / ghost mirror light / flesh for my flesh / death pact signet

what am i missing ?

IMO, i feel that the channeling rit / domination mes / prot monk secondaries are the most attractive . What do you think ?

p.s. the reason i dont use well of blood is because OotV nec will fight with the MM for corpses and with a 2 second recharge, the MM ain't gonna get anything . however if you were to micro it then it'd be good .

also, 30 seconds of aegis is nice

check this for more viables

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Rt/a...Channeling_Rit

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:N/any_Minion_Bomber

Quote:

N/Rt OoV/Weapon

Order Of The Vampire, Mark Of Fury, Well Of Blood/Strip Enchantment(depends), Nightmare, splinter and Warmonger weapons, SoLS, Flesh of My Flesh.

does this hero spam all 3 weapon spells on the same person ? o.o

edit: i just tried your OotV build . Apparently it didn't work for me o.o

have you tried this ?

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:E/N_...Renewal_Orders

Aldric · Feb 02, 2010, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

IMO, viable secondary professions for necros are ...

monk - prot 9 and healing 5 or prot 10 - Prot spirit / Aegis / Dwayna's Sorrow / Spirit bond ?

mesmer - domination - Cry of Fustration / power spike ?

paragons - command - fall back ?

ritualist - channeling - splinter weapon / ancestor's rage / death pact signet / flesh for my flesh

ritualist - restoration - life / spirit light / mend body and soul / ghost mirror light / flesh for my flesh / death pact signet

what am i missing ?

IMO, i feel that the channeling rit / domination mes / prot monk secondaries are the most attractive . What do you think ?

I've ran the same basic MB build with most of these options dependant on area although my most perferred one is probably the Resto Rit with Mend/Pure was Li ming/Flesh.

The prot version was used alot until i started running an ER protter , but i didnt see any huge extra benefit in doubling up so i just stick with my prots on the Ele and use the MB for something else.

I have been trying the /P fallback build recently and i find the extra speedboost makes a very nice difference. seemed to really speed up a few vanquishes so i might stick with it for a bit , unless im in a real condi/hex heavy area.

The only other option i was looking at was a /Monk version for bonding SoH on a physical or 2 but i havent been arsed to see if thats worth it yet

/P for speed, /Rit for heals and condi removal or /Me for interupts would be my preference

mage767 · Feb 02, 2010, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Screens/ builds, in that case? Only way to prove it ;-P
Besides, I could deal that amount of damage with barbs+BuH and 3 sins spamming with LF on the Master of Damage. I assume.

I doubt you can keep up the damage using 3 sin support over 3 minutes...

P.S. Pm'ed you the screenshot, check it out.

Lusciious · Feb 02, 2010, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

I doubt you can keep up the damage using 3 sin support over 3 minutes...

P.S. Pm'ed you the screenshot, check it out.

i think he said BuH and not EVAS .

@aldric, paragons have actually pretty good utilities in the command line . like anthem of disruption . its only 10 energy which is nothing for a nec .

don't forget rit for splinter weapon . splinter weapon + mops + aoe = very nice!

i wanted triple aegis ! but then when i think about it again, i don't think i need that much .

in HM, i'd take spirit bond over prot spirit . if the enemy does not deal above 60 damage, spirit bond does not work however if the enemy does not deal over 60 damage, prot spirit does not work either .

spirit bond on the other hand heals . but of course, it's better to have both

edit: i have tried the ER orders . it worked way better than an orders nec . the build is a few posts above .

MasterSasori · Feb 02, 2010, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

i think he said BuH and not EVAS .

@aldric, paragons have actually pretty good utilities in the command line . like anthem of disruption . its only 10 energy which is nothing for a nec .

I don't see anything other than Fallback or We shall return that a para has that another class can do better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

i wanted triple aegis ! but then when i think about it again, i don't think i need that much .

You don't. Double Aegis may not even be necessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

in HM, i'd take spirit bond over prot spirit . if the enemy does not deal above 60 damage, spirit bond does not work however if the enemy does not deal over 60 damage, prot spirit does not work either .

spirit bond on the other hand heals . but of course, it's better to have both

Prot Spirit>Spirit Bond in PvE. It's too short and the damage spike you are worried about in PvE aren't enough for SB to compensate compared to PS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

edit: i have tried the ER orders . it worked way better than an orders nec . the build is a few posts above .

And what did you use for the filler slots? I don't see anything that blood/energy storage can do that is useful enough to compensate for N/X Orders.

Lusciious · Feb 03, 2010, 09:55 AM // 09:55

there are a few more paragon skills that is still worthy of usage in PvE . Think out of the box .

"Find Their Weakness!" for more damage + DW.
"Stand Your Ground!" for extra armor while fighting.
"Fall Back!" for movement support.
Anthem of Weariness for added Weakness.
Anthem of Disruption to interrupt.
"Never Surrender!" to save dying allies.

Aegis helps to remove alot of pressure off the monk's blue bar .

Quote:

Prot Spirit>Spirit Bond in PvE. It's too short and the damage spike you are worried about in PvE aren't enough for SB to compensate compared to PS.

You managed to shut me up on this point . i guess what you said made more sense then what i said >.>

For the ER Orders, there is ER, Aura of Restoration, Order of pain, dark fury, awaken the blood .

3 more optionals . the ER can afford awaken the blood because his hp regen can counter the hp sacrificed .

the 3 optionals can be strip enchant (which is usually in my bar) and ward against foe / melee / eruption / earthquake from earth magic or we can go curses for barbs, mop, enfeebling blood.

First things first, D/N is out because it just doesn't do as well as either builds .

Yes a N/X Orders can go curses and even be better than the ER Orders in some cases, but remember, the N/X Orders (Order of Pain + Fury or OotV) cannot sustain his own hp .

17+17 = 34% hp sacrificed is alot .

infact, 17 is already alot . the hp gained from the physicals can sometimes be lower than the hp sacrificed by N/X orders. Your healers would have to focus on you also . when your party is under pressure, you don't want that to happen .

Yes you would have more variety in your optionals if you went N/X but you will have energy problems if nothing dies / low corpse areas . but what more optionals do you want ? how much of a spread of attribute can your nec do ?

Maximum 3 ? Blood and SR are a must . so what are you left with ? one last attribute .

Like mentioned earlier, you have more variety e.g. channeling, restoration (no pwk btw since you want to be wielding a spear), smite, curses, command, domination, protection .

But tell me, what can you fill with all those slots ?

I'm 100% sure that if you were a N/X Order, you won't go Order of Pain + Dark fury because it sacrifices too much hp . So OotV . What other blood skills are viable ?

OotV, Strip Enchant, SoLS. 5 optionals

How many good optionals can you use ? Yeah get protection, aegis, prot spirit, spirit bond, soa, dismiss condition ? how energy intensive is that ? o.o and you're also spamming OotV .

come to think of it .. i kinda like having more varieties . i shall try to make another N/X OotV build .

Care to help ?

I think mark of fury can replace dark fury as long as you start calling . and OotV is always better than Order of Pain .

Well it has to do something with it's own HP . It was meant to be a support yet it can't support itself ?

Lusciious · Feb 03, 2010, 11:04 AM // 11:04

i know i'm contradicting what i said in the earlier post but i'll give it a go .

seeing how i don't want my orders nec to be spamming well of blood, i decided to go with well of power .

heres my orders build .

Well of Power, Order of Pain, Mark of Fury / Dark Fury, Strip Enchantment, Splinter Weapon, Nightmare Weapon, Ancestor's rage, Awaken the Blood.

Well of Power provides better support than Order of the vampire and i have replaced well of blood (no more fighting with MM for corpses)

We use order builds for physical buffs . OotV is a + because it has health stealing however it does not work with other nec enchants . Order of Pain deals as much damage as OotV and it works with nec enchants .

What do you think of it ?

also, i can't decide on a minor blood rune or superior .

with awaken the blood and major, you get 17 blood magic which = +7 hp regen from well of blood . also, it reduces hp sacced since now your overall hp is lower .

or maybe a major rune since all we need is 17 blood magic.

edit: however, do remember that OotV is armour ignoring since it's life steal. Idk if its possible to make a good build with OotV as the elite .

am open for ideas .

also, heroes do not use unholy feast well .

MasterSasori · Feb 03, 2010, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

there are a few more paragon skills that is still worthy of usage in PvE . Think out of the box .

"Find Their Weakness!" for more damage + DW.
"Stand Your Ground!" for extra armor while fighting.
"Fall Back!" for movement support.
Anthem of Weariness for added Weakness.
Anthem of Disruption to interrupt.
"Never Surrender!" to save dying allies.

Aegis helps to remove alot of pressure off the monk's blue bar .

I don't think there is anything I haven't tried on a Paragon bar unless it's really out of the box. I use them all to some extent except Never Surrender, which blows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

3 more optionals . the ER can afford awaken the blood because his hp regen can counter the hp sacrificed .

the 3 optionals can be strip enchant (which is usually in my bar) and ward against foe / melee / eruption / earthquake from earth magic or we can go curses for barbs, mop, enfeebling blood.

ER can afford it but unless you spec to a third att, everything else in energy storage/blood magic isn't too useful. Using Earth magic is creative, but earth magic sucks in HM as it is. Eruption/Ward is decent with some damage mitigation but no where as useful as the N/X healer. Besides N/X can reach higher Blood Magic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

First things first, D/N is out because it just doesn't do as well as either builds .

D/N was probably the worst hero mistake I've made since ZB monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Yes a N/X Orders can go curses and even be better than the ER Orders in some cases, but remember, the N/X Orders (Order of Pain + Fury or OotV) cannot sustain his own hp .

17+17 = 34% hp sacrificed is alot .

Why on earth would you run Awaken the Blood on the necro unless you want to die?

[QUOTE=Lusciious;5040532]Yes you would have more variety in your optionals if you went N/X but you will have energy problems if nothing dies / low corpse areas . but what more optionals do you want ? how much of a spread of attribute can your nec do ?....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Maximum 3 ? Blood and SR are a must . so what are you left with ? one last attribute .

There are some skills that can be used that require no/little atts to be effective. The same problems about att spread can be attributed to ER as well. Except the N/X at least has a free secondary for something useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Like mentioned earlier, you have more variety e.g. channeling, restoration (no pwk btw since you want to be wielding a spear), smite, curses, command, domination, protection.....

How many good optionals can you use ? Yeah get protection, aegis, prot spirit, spirit bond, soa, dismiss condition ? how energy intensive is that ? o.o and you're also spamming OotV ....

Care to help ?

Where should I begin?

SOH, Smite Hex/Condition, Fallback, We Shall Return, Anthem of Weariness, disruption ect, Cry of Frustration, Power Return (Fast Cast but wutever), Remove Hex, Aegis, PS, Convert Hexes, Warmonger's Weapon, Splinter Weapon, Barbs, Enfeebling blood, Shadow of Fear, Life, Recovery, Rejuvenation, MBAS, Spirit Light, Ghostmirror light, Death Pact Sig, FoF.

SB sucks. Thought I mentioned that earlier. SoA is not OP enough to make it on the bar.

Having problems spamming OoV? Soul reaping 10+1 instead of 8+1. /Me Inspiration for Power Drain, Leech Sig, Inspire crap

OoV and to an extent, Strip Enchantment and Mark of Fury (MAYBE blood rit) are the only things truly worth carrying on the bar in terms of blood. With 8+1 or 10+1 soul reaping, you have a free 8 or 10 for another necro line or a secondary line. Customization and freedom of secondary w/ atts is one of the strongest pros for a N/X OoV. How often can you say that of other hero lines? To have like 5-6 free slots?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Well it has to do something with it's own HP . It was meant to be a support yet it can't support itself?

That is subjective. Same principle as almost all hero builds: Team effort. If OoV needs heals, use a ER infuser or something to make it up for continual life loss.

I don't see many options better than N/Rt anyway.

Lusciious · Feb 03, 2010, 10:35 PM // 22:35

i have no energy problems spamming OotV . i meant spamming prot spells

Quote:

Why on earth would you run Awaken the Blood on the necro unless you want to die?

that's why we use infuse like you said earlier .

In the previous post, my nec can sustain itself and support the party with well of power + order of pain + awaken the blood . it might even work with dark fury . I didn't say to use awaken the blood with OotV

Here's how i think it ranks .

OotV Nec = SoS Restoration Support Rit > Order of Pain Nec > Others

The only reason why Order of Pain would be dealing less than it's stated damage is against high AL bosses . since Order of Pain = Physical damage like barbs . However a spirit's attack is armour ignoring and added together with Painful Bond, you would see up to 50 damage per spirit . But remember that even though it's armour ignoring, it does not by pass prots so prots like shielding hands would reduce its damage . But also, don't forget that the spirit's attack aren't 200 and that it has to be blocked by prot spirit . they do small damage packs which is good and bad .

there aren't many prots that prevent a spirit from attacking . there is SH, SoA, Prot Spirit (but mostly it doesn't work since spirits usually attack for <30 and the enemies usually have more than 300 hp), prot bond (i don't think AI uses this well), RoF (this blocks OotV as well), LS (this blocks OotV as well), life bond (look at prot bond), guardian (this goes against OotV as well) and Aegis.

Look at it . the most harmful prots e.g. RoF, LS, Guardian, Aegis and against spirit attacks also affect OotV .

Because of the fact that OotV bypasses most prots and is armour ignoring like spirit attacks and spirits have low hp, therefore OotV > Spirits . But an OotV has to sacrifice it's hp . but an SoS Rit doesn't .

But yeah .. OotV + Channeling > SoS + Restoration > Others ...

so far i like Well of Power + Order of Pain . The support is good . and i get to use (+ a major and awaken the blood for 17 blood for +7 hp regen from well of power) and of course higher damage from order of pain . no life steal is bad but w.e .. i can't make a good build with OotV -.-

edit: this is just retarded .

a SoS Restoration Rit is the best . Sorry . Just proven it over and over again .

SoS + Painful Bond + 47 damage x 5 splinter weapon + Heals > OotV

Look . with a hybrid SoS Rit, you don't have to get another healer . that means you get to bring 4 physicals . and this means that SoS wins

We want to make the most out of mark of pain . not OotV . Against high AL foes mainly bosses, we have painful bond + 3 spirits . against normal foes, we have a very strong splinter weapon . and henchmen don't always have 25/33% ias . neither do casters with spears .

Lusciious · Feb 05, 2010, 09:59 AM // 09:59

funny i'm contradicting myself again .

both works i guess

i have a few questions though ...

Quote:

N/Rt OoV/Weapon

Order Of The Vampire, Mark Of Fury, Well Of Blood/Strip Enchantment(depends), Nightmare, splinter and Warmonger weapons, SoLS, Flesh of My Flesh.

Do heroes stack weapon spells on the same person ?

Do you micro well of blood ?

I wouldn't bring Flesh for my Flesh . I like the other one more .

Do you use a minor rune or sup rune of blood magic ?

Shadowphoenix · Feb 05, 2010, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

i have a few questions though ...

Do heroes stack weapon spells on the same person ?

Do you micro well of blood ?

I wouldn't bring Flesh for my Flesh . I like the other one more .

Do you use a minor rune or sup rune of blood magic ?

Answers:

1) If you mean about if the same person can have multiple weaponspells on him the answer is NO, because if a hero put you in example a Splinter Weapon and then put you Nightmare Weapon the last one will overwrite Splinter Weapon, otherwise if you mean if a hero can put you in example Splinter Weapons multiples times before Splinter Weapons the answer is YES it happens that heroes put you the same spell multiple times or before ends the first one.

2) No heroes when they see a corpse on sight they activate the wells without microing (at least for me).

3) Is a matter of choice but in my opinion I prefer minor blood rune.

Hope this help you Lusciious

HigherMinion · Feb 05, 2010, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowphoenix

Answers:

3) Is a matter of choice but in my opinion I prefer minor blood rune.

Hope this help you Lusciious

If you're just going to have 14 blood you might aswell use an E/N orders. OoV should always be run with 16 blood, it helps with sacrificing anyway, to have less health.

Yes, with enough energy, corpses will become instant regen-pools on demand.

Moving onto weapon spells:
You are underestimating the AI's power. Imagine that this bot is spamming tab all the time, and whenever someone does not have a weapon spell on them while spamming tab, it will designate you a weapon.

The only time your Splinter may be replaced is by Nightmare, which have healing properties and, if your health is low, will replace splinter.

Artificial intelligence are smarter than you think.

Lusciious · Feb 05, 2010, 01:54 PM // 13:54

no no . what i mean by the weapon spells question is that if he casted splinter on you, would he cast another weapon spell on you for no apparent reason ?

Here's what i'm having a dilemma about .

OotV Channelling + 1 healer hench + 3 physical hench

OotV Restoration + 4 physical hench

SoS Channelling + 4 physical hench .

Which one is better ?

Edit: How would Well of Blood be good when it's fighting for corpses against the MM ? I don't like micro-ing so yeah ..